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Event CLO symposium 2025
We made it through to the other side
LMEs and Trump tariffs were hot topics at the Creditflux CLO Symposium 2025. But managers agreed that the market has survived — and maybe even thrived — through recent volatility
This may finally give Europe the shake up it needs
Eddie O’Neill
Co-head of global liquid credit, KKR
Recent tariff negotiations may push Europe to invest more in infrastructure and pursue deregulation, said O’Neill.
We’ve largely avoided LMEs
Shiloh Bates
Chief investment officer, Flat Rock Global
Two-thirds of Flat Rock’s investments in CLO equity are in private credit deals, so the manager has largely avoided costly legal battles.
One month later, I think most people are over the initial panic
Kos Vavelidis
Partner, DLA Piper
After confusing guidance from European regulators, input from arrangers, originators, managers, investors and lawyers has helped the market come together and move forward again.
When markets dislocate, we can take advantage
Jim Stehli
Co-lead for CLO platform, Polen Capital
Usually, Polen is willing to be conservative, said Stehli. But it is ready to become a buyer when the right moment comes.
There are potential benefits to being a large holder in a name
Kevin Wong
Managing director, CVC Credit
The influence that comes with holding a large position can help a manager drive any restructuring.
In a prolonged crisis, I think the middle market would outperform
Christopher Terry
Managing director, AB Private Credit Investors
In challenging times, BSL CLOs are hurt by cov-lite loans, by the sheer number of lenders, and by lender-on-lender violence.
There’s a true sale element there
Daniel Tobias
Partner, Cadwalader
Middle market CLOs have a balance sheet seller, whereas in a BSL CLO the manager is sourcing assets in the market.
It’s probably healthy to have a diverse set of time horizons
Peter Polanskyj
Chief investment officer, Obra Capital
As ETFs take an increasing share of CLO triple As, the market is having to get used to the fact they are not long-term investors.
The demand for ABS and CLOs hasn’t changed
Elena Rinaldi
Portfolio manager, TwentyFour Asset Management
Since Liberation Day, investors are still looking at ABS and CLOs as Fed-favourable asset classes.
The asset side in Europe isn’t influenced by open-ended funds or retail money
Jane Lee
Head of CLO capital formation, Blackstone
European loan prices are less volatile than those in the US because they aren’t affected by ETFs. But the liability side is still influenced by global factors.
We were talking to our companies about how they would react
Joe Carden
Head of fund finance, Cerberus Business Finance
Before and after Liberation Day, Cerberus pushed its companies for information about how tariffs affected them — and how they were reacting.
It has gotten to a point where lender-on-lender violence is a cage match
Lin Chang
Head of CLO Capital Markets, Elmwood Asset Management
In the US, LMEs have caused intense fights, said Chang.
Managers couldn’t take advantage
Anusha Singh
EMEA head CLO primary, JPMorgan
In the US, after 2 April, a “lack of clarity and stability” in triple As meant managers couldn’t benefit from cheap loans.
Increase in demand for CLOs will come from regulatory change
Harry Choulilitsas
Director, Natixis Corporate & Investment Banking
There is little prospect of the CLO investor base materially expanding without a change in regulations, said Choulilitsas.
I thought of CLOs as being like Theseus’s ship
Chris McGarry
Partner, Mayer Brown
After a CLO sets sail, you change the sail — that’s a refi of the triple As. Later, the hull needs to be replaced — that’s a reset. The captain and cargo are the same but the ship is new.
It’s been really difficult for us to source material
David Altenhofen
Head of investments, Accunia Credit Management
There have been too many CLO investors since Liberation Day, not too few, said Altenhofen.
There is demand from investors for some diversity
Dushy Puvan
Head of EMEA CLOs and financing, BNP Paribas
We have seen an influx of US managers into Europe, says Puvan. Now we’re seeing new European managers launch.
Sometimes you just need to be more patient
Orestis Millas
Head of EMEA private credit & CLO new issue, Morgan Stanley
During the volatility, loan prices did not drop to where many warehouses felt comfortable adding assets.
It took a punch, but that punch didn’t take it down
Olivier Pons
Senior portfolio manager, AXA IM
The CLO market held up well during tariff-induced volatility, says Pons. AXA has still been able to trade and create value.
They’re very smart, well-funded individuals
Young Choi
Global head of trading and portfolio manager, Rockford Tower
LMEs are being run by people who know how to profit from weak covenants, said Choi.
Having layers of capable leadership is one way to avoid disastrous departures
Serhan Secmen
Global head of CLO business, Napier Park
The best CLO teams are designed to adapt to various challenges and situations, believes Secmen.
CLOs are our most long-term and cost-efficient form of financing
Alan George
Head of structured products, Golub Capital
Golub seeks diversified sources of leverage across multiple product types, but it tends to access the CLO market for the majority of its financing needs.
Periods where the arb was bad have delivered high-performing vintages
Colin Behar
Portfolio manager for USS
The embedded optionality provided by high liability-side pricing has created opportunities for CLO equity investors.
Generally, LMEs don’t come in a nice, steady flow
Brian Nolan
Head of European CLO structuring, PGIM
If the market is distressed you could get a lot of LMEs at once — and CLO managers may not have sufficient resources to be able to make informed decisions.
Much press came out saying that’s it, ETFs work
Shawn Cooper
Portfolio manager, Orchard Capital
Despite the headlines, Cooper believes ETFs have not yet been properly tested by the market.
You have to be nimble
Matthew Layton
Partner and head of EMEA, Pearl Diver Capital
Layton says the key for CLO managers is to be agnostic between the primary and secondary markets.
This wasn’t the kind of sustained draw-down that is possible
Mark Shohet
Portfolio manager, BlueBay Structured Credit & CLOs
Shohet feels recent volatility was milder than it might have been, but he sees “true pre-GFC-style liquidity risk” as extremely unlikely in the near term.
New insurance companies in the US are buying investment-grade mezz
Luis Leon Carsi
European primary CLO co-head, Jefferies
US investors that focused on European CLO triple As are increasingly looking at relative value between the two markets, with appetite across the full capital structure.
If they start redeeming, does that have a knock-on effect for CLOs?
Roy Kuo
Chief investment officer, Galilei Investment Office
As private credit funds buy into the liquid loan market via semi-liquid vehicles, Kuo believes they are affecting underlying loan pricing.
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